The sentence – the shooting, then almost 27 years in the Vladimir prison the Mordovian and Perm camps, numerous hunger strikes and the mark of a dangerous recidivist. It is unlikely that in Ukraine there is a person that directly would be associated with the struggle for the independence of Ukraine more than Ukrainian dissident and former political prisoner Levko Lukyanenko. It was in 1991, on the notebook sheet wrote a draft of the Declaration of independence of Ukraine, which is then read out from the podium, Leonid Kravchuk.
“If I’m allowed then that would be a war with Moscow? I permitted it. But it didn’t seem something near”, – the correspondent LIGA.net met Levko Lukyanenko at his home in the village Hotiv near Kiev. Otherwise he maintains a cautious optimism: Ukraine is living in very difficult, but a momentous time, and the beginning of political and economic processes inevitably lead to the collapse of Russia.
In an interview LIGA.net Lukyanenko explained why the disintegration of the Russian Empire is historically inevitable and where does the act of awakening ethnic groups, when it was a planned war of Russia with Ukraine, why would Putin, the Crimea and the Donbass, why Russians are not Slavs has changed and how the Ukrainian nation and power since independence.
“IT WILL TAKE A FEW YEARS TO ADMIT DEFEAT”
– You were the author of the Declaration of independence of Ukraine. When you wrote it in 1991 – could imagine that after 23 years, Russia starts aggression against Ukraine, annexed Crimea, occupied part of the Donbass and kill thousands of Ukrainians?
I and my sister in the struggle for independence, who sat in concentration camps and prisons, different then pictured, who is the enemy of Ukraine: the occupation administration. In Ukraine, who is this? The Communist party of Ukraine – the Moscow branch of the Communist party. The Declaration of independence is contrary to their occupational goals and, therefore, the Communists will not. But it so happened that the Communists gave us independence, the Parliament had most of them, they were confused, a lot of discussions. There were interesting responses: what have we done before that we should secede? But voted. And once the Communists gave us independence, they have been a power in occupation, and remained in independent Ukraine. Is the General atmosphere that has defined the development.
Could I then foresee a war with Moscow? I permitted it. In 1991 there was the first phase of disintegration of the Russian Empire. But Yeltsin represented not the whole political elite in Moscow. Just the balance of forces is so complicated that played the role of democratizer. Although what the hell he’s a Democrat? And at the same time in Moscow there was a large number of the political elite of the imperialist direction. They did not accept the withdrawal of Ukraine and other republics is impossible without them Empire. So Yes, theoretically I do not exclude that the war may be. But it didn’t seem relatable. And I was hoping that Ukraine is so much stronger that she was not afraid to be encroachment of Moscow.
– If 1991 was the first stage of the disintegration of the Empire, would the second?
Now, things happen that just made the second stage. We live in a very significant time, even though we hard. For the first six or seven centuries, Ukraine is fighting only against one enemy. And on the side of Ukraine – the entire civilized European world. That is, Ukraine is not only fighting for their independence and for the adoption of European principles on this part of the globe. Against Asian Muscovy, which by its nature authoritarian, that human rights exist and people like it that way. They have one rule: if you above – I’m a slave, and if it is below – I am a despot.
– When and how it may fail this step for Russia?
– It will end by far the collapse of the Russian Empire. What will happen: Mordva, Chuvash, and other indigenous peoples will create an independent state. And Muscovites – their national state, which they never had. The collapse of the Russian Federation may occur very quickly, within a year or two. But for Russians themselves, it will be a catharsis. It is the collapse of an everlasting desire to expand, collapse a century of dreams. Nothing will survive.
If I could foresee a war with Moscow? I permitted it. In 1991 there was the first phase of disintegration of the Russian Empire. It didn’t seem relatable. And I was hoping that Ukraine is so much stronger that she was not afraid to be encroachment of Moscow
The Russian aggression against Ukraine was planned in 2014 or earlier?
– When we declared independence, Moscow’s elites have not accepted it. I know in the Petersburg center for political studies was. I started planning how to return Ukraine under the rule of Moscow. We developed several plans. It was in 1992. In what ways? First, a spy network throughout Ukraine have been before and will not go away, all of it became subordinate to the idea of the return of Ukraine under Moscow. In 1993, restored the Communist party, established the Socialist party and the Agrarian party. This open a legal column for 25 years led the campaign that the Declaration of independence is the case of zigzag, an abnormal phenomenon that Ukrainians and Russians are one people. Then there were planned, broad, constant indoctrination of the Ukrainian population in order to split, to break faith in their own state, to prevent the consolidation of the Ukrainian nation based on the Ukrainian national idea.
Then they organized dozens of public organizations. Published magazines, Newspapers, were engaged in a large advocacy. And our government were brought up to listen to Moscow, she was not independent. They are used only to fulfill orders from Russia. When the Soviet Union system was what? Working in Moscow Gosplan – about 6 thousand people, – developing objectives. These tasks descend on Kiev and Kiev already distributes in 25 areas and more factories-factories. So, what is Kiev? This is the control point for the transfer of decisions from Moscow region. And this function is not raising independent leaders, she raises the instrument of another’s will.
And now, Ukraine has a nationalist elite.
– Why, in your opinion, Ukraine has not learned anything from the eight-day war between Russia and Georgia in 2008, the conflict around the Ukrainian Tuzla island, which is still ten years before the beginning of direct aggression already tried to take the Russian Federation?
– Because our government was very weak national consciousness. And they position used for their own enrichment. About Ukraine a little thought. Someone did, even in spite of Ukraine: Oh, you wanted independence – so here you go. Kuchma, who took to his advisors? Tabachnik, Rabinovich, Surkis. What advice was given to these people?
– And could the Ukraine to stop this war? Like, at what stage?
– Ukraine did not start the war. This initiative of Moscow. I said that she had several plans. Information war since 1991, the economic war. In the political sphere is a huge agents. Lustration, which should have been, was not supported. When I wrote the bill on lustration, are for Parliament, and I for one sleeve: wait, Levko. I stopped. He took me into the session hall, said: look, if your laws to make, few will remain here. Can you imagine what filled the Verkhovna Rada?
Ukraine not prepared for war, and Moscow was preparing. Although the military plan was considered last option. When the Russian managed to hold on to the position of President Yanukovych, started video training and latest version – armed. Remember how destroyed the army. Just, blatantly and quickly. In 1993 there was a decision, which is obliged to provide for the army 3% of GDP. But it never happened. The General staff asked for more funding, the Verkhovna Rada did not give him a: sell equipment, then the ground, the weapons themselves produce the tools themselves provide. An abnormal phenomenon.
Yushchenko’s fault that led to Yanukovych’s government. And Yanukovych is an agent of Putin, and followed their instructions always. From the second day.
ATO – abbreviation false, it is disingenuous, confusing and frees the West from aid. If you just bandits, terrorists, then let the police deal with it… It is cowardice, dreadful cowardice of the President and the top
– Why Putin’s Crimea – in principle, of course, especially in the context of the Imperial traditions of Russia. The majority of Russians support the annexation, and I believe that has regained its. But why would he want the Donbas – the most depressed region of Ukraine?
– Putin – the son of his people. And the people are Finno-Finno-Tatar, as if Peter I in the 18th century was not renamed Muscovy to Russia-Russia and commanded them not to call themselves Slavs. Psychology-Finno Finno-Tatar people remains the same – aggressive. It is inside of them, deeply. Due to the fact that they were born in the forests and swamps, they lived from hunting, fishing. And still, by the way, keep the same orientation: do not live from the labour of their hands, but with what nature has given. Previously, it was fish and game, and now oil and gas. This way of life demanded of nomadism: it knocked the game – move. They do not build the house, not equip life. They have a shack that was not a pity to throw and go to a new field in the new forest. This is the psychology that had formed over the previous couple of thousand years, and they can’t change. Therefore, the expansion of the Empire – the ideology laid down in the bones. They need a different territory, which they have not yet exploited.
The same thing now. Transnistria – what is it? Kaliningrad oblast – why?
And from Transnistria and from the occupied part of Donbass, they officially repudiate.
Moscow can wait. From becoming of the Hetman to the colony over a hundred years. From 1654 the Hetman were under the Moscow Tsar, but only in 1764 was abolished the autonomy of Ukraine. One hundred and ten years! The Empire always thinks ahead by centuries.
– How is it that we lost the Crimea and Donbass mentally? And how to get their residents in the Ukrainian orbit, when these areas will again be under control?
– To give freedom to everyone. Who loves Russia – let him go to Russia. Who loves Ukraine – he lives in Ukraine. It is not necessary to impose. But, of course, it is necessary to expand the knowledge of history. 25 years of independence TV, like Ukrainian, has done nothing for the spread of the Ukrainian national idea. 25 years, they have implemented the Moscow anti-Ukrainian ideology, spread it from the screen.
Trouble is, a huge crime against the Ukrainian nation, since 1991 the state has not established a program of gradual displacement of the heads of the Moscow ideology and fill this emptiness Ukrainian culture and Ukrainian national idea.
Trouble is, a huge crime against the Ukrainian nation, since 1991 the state has not established a program of gradual displacement of the heads of the Moscow ideology and fill this emptiness Ukrainian culture and Ukrainian national idea
– When Yushchenko during his presidency, actively promoted the idea of national memory, including the memory of famine is only caused rejection in the Donbas.
Because in the last century to massively imported Russians. During the first Holodomor in Ukraine in the years 1921-23, mostly in the South, famine had killed up to 4 million Ukrainians. Then Trotsky said that they experimentally proved the Holodomor to kill than guns. Then there was the endless repression, and in 1932-33, the 10 million killed. In the deserted villages of Central Russia brought Russians. It was the first wave. The second came in 1944. Germans from the Ukraine have been expelled, came to Russia. It is necessary to restore the Donbass. But the Ukrainian people declared not worthy of political trust. In the questionnaires even was the question: was under occupation. Are not set by the plant Manager, superintendent, mine Manager. And in the same year imported from Russia caste “politically trusted people.” And all the Ukrainians politically unreliable. This develops an inferiority complex. And every mechanic or a Baker begins to tweet in Russian, otherwise you will not. And surname change: was Snigur – became Snegirev was Petrenko became Petrenkov was Sribny – became Srebrov. So began a terrible Russification.
But in the laws adopted by the Verkhovna Rada of reintegration and control of Donbas, instead of Ukrainization proposed the free circulation of the Russian language and “friendship” with Russia.
– It is absolutely normal. In the Donbass it is necessary to strengthen educational work. So they understand that we are different from Russians and as shaped our nation. And they might have realized who was doing the evil Ukrainians, who did not give to live a normal life.
– Last year you said that Ukraine should declare a state of war in the Crimea and the Donbass, the Minsk group to turn to an international body on charges of Russian aggression. You don’t see the diplomatic prospects?
– I still think that it was necessary to declare. ATO is the acronym of false, it is disingenuous, confusing and frees the West from aid. If we are criminals, terrorists, then let the police deal with it. A 1994 agreement on safeguarding Ukraine’s security and sovereignty provides external influence. That allowed Western States to absolve themselves of responsibility. It is cowardice, dreadful cowardice of the President and the elite. It was necessary to declare a state of war in the Crimea and the Donbass. Crimea is an act of occupation, aggression, capture. The Russian Empire had included this part of our territory. It’s a complete act of aggression.
See also: Games upstairs. What they say about Donbass, Kiev, Moscow and Washington
– The authorities were not prepared and feared a full-scale invasion of Russia?
– Why, when Putin Tuzla climbed back Kuchma flew, and behind him a team of deputies of the Verkhovna Rada. And when Russian intelligence through somebody began to wonder what Ukraine will do, said, to bombard and shoot down your planes. And then the government got scared immediately. Although came even not Russia, and people unmarked. Why are those people without characters do not drown immediately in the Strait? This is not Russia, and who knows who. Here, it is not known who and drowned. And now Lugansk and Donetsk, Russia officially the flag was not set.
– It is obvious that the Minsk agreement went into a remote corner: no one performs. What, in your opinion, could force Putin to withdraw from Ukraine? The strengthening of sanctions, pressure from Western partners, ukryta war, the peacemakers?
– You want to know how will be further? The first stage of the disintegration of the Russian Empire took place for economic reasons, and the second stage may occur for economic reasons. Those sanctions, which allegedly do not give, is actually a very powerful thing. Ukraine is now in favourable conditions. The whole world puts pressure on Russia. Our allies – not only Europeans but also Americans. The complex of these actions can Russia curb until she admits defeat and retreat from the Ukrainian territory. And then in Russia itself will be something that will cease its existence in its current form. There’s also the displeasure is big and growing. For example, Tatarstan – he refused to allow his men to war with Muslim countries. Well, took Moscow, and resigned. A Muslim territory in Russia is not only of Tatarstan and all Volga region and the North Caucasus (according to official data of the 2002 census, the number of Muslim peoples in Russia – 10%, – ed). So in fact we witness a very violent event. Russia will be forced to withdraw and give independence to all the national republics.
No sign yet of this scenario, no.
They are silent, but they are waiting when it will be possible to do it.
– Next year’s scheduled elections of the President of Russia. Will they to the situation? Is there any options for change of power in Russia, except for the death of Putin?
– Very subject to change.
– What will it give to Ukraine? What difference who sits in the Kremlin: an Orthodox chekist Putin blogger Navalny chauvinist, clown Zhirinovsky or glossy Sobchak?
– I do not expect very rapid change. Will take several years before Russia admitted defeat. She still tends to spread to the whole Europe, and then to the whole world. These aggressive intentions lead to huge expenses. And the joint pressure on Russia will inevitably lead to its collapse. Whether this will happen during the election period, when the powers of Putin, or with the arrival of someone new – it is difficult to calculate.
See also Sovereignty versus globalization: the problem of preservation of balance
But it is an inevitable scenario that is developing in accordance with the global law of the awakening of ethnic groups. This factor is the awakening of ethnic groups, the most profound law of modern development. The engine of the history that determines the world politics and world development. From huge States the world is going to small. Russia can not remain aloof from this global development. They have always said so: Europe is developing, and we go our own way. Their way meant that they were just behind one or two generations from the European development, but will inevitably do it again. Now this problem is actually of global importance – the revival of ethnic groups. They are in Spain, Italy, France, even in Germany. The ethnic group turns into a nation with aspirations for independence.
Russia also can not stay away from this pattern. But it’s hard to say when this will happen – in two years or in ten years.
Will take several years for Russia to admit defeat. She still tends to spread to the whole Europe, and then around the world. But the combined pressure on Russia will inevitably lead to its collapse. Whether this will happen during the election period, when the powers of Putin, or with the arrival of someone new – it is difficult to calculate
“WHILE WE’RE AT WAR – REVOLUTION IMPOSSIBLE. THIS VIDEO HELP PUTIN”
– Since the beginning of the revolution of dignity, which led to the deaths of hundreds of civilians and the escape of Yanukovych, it’s been four years. Do you have a sense of political progress? Society changes and grows, his needs also. And the power?
– In fact, it changed Ukrainians. When they saw the Russians – not diplomats and propagandists, and military. When the whole world saw how they treat prisoners by the Ukrainians, as they do with the dead, how the people barbaric as it is wild. When they have dead Ukrainians cut out the eyes or the belly struts. It terrified everyone. Then I remembered that it was in 1709 during the mazepinschiny: they are after the victory over the Ukrainian-Swedish troops dug up the grave and cut off the Cossacks of the head. From beyond the grave. Dead. What kind of people? What is this sadism? What is that wildness?
That was the most powerful lesson for Ukrainians. It made me think: no, we are civilized people, we have such savagery can never be. Therefore, the Ukrainians until the fall of 2013 and after 2014 is a very different nation.
– And the Ukrainian government? There is no sense that it is divorced from this reality?
– Correctly. We have the power of the gangster-criminal. And this is the next problem and the next task of the Ukrainian nation. But first you have to defeat Muscovy.
– How the government evolved after the Maidan? Can we say that the political class has been updated? Or changed names?
Something that our government is bad, doesn’t mean we should turn a blind eye on the good stuff. For almost 25 years, until the formation of this government, we lived in the Soviet Ukraine. And this power is said, enough to live on the Moscow calendar. Adopted a law on de-communization, the law on the Ukrainian language. This power is actually raised the question of the Ukrainians as a nation. I don’t take Yanukovych, but Yushchenko remember: like Patriotic man, but he was a propagandist, not a statesman. How could we not cursed Poroshenko, but it was when Ukraine broke away from Muscovy. Dreamt about this generation of political prisoners in Vladimir prison and in Mordovia and the Urals.
– Why Poroshenko does not conduct real reform, even under pressure from the public and the Western partners? The police – natureform, update the judiciary has not happened and considering the case, the same judge who threw protesters in jail, medical – only announced to the pension a lot of questions. Corruption has been, and is thriving – despite the creation of NABU and SAP. It looks like cosmetic repairs and not reform.
– Because he cares more about his business than Ukraine. To change it, affect it only by mass demonstrations.
On the other hand, there is a risk of revenge openly Pro-Russian political forces. According to recent opinion polls, the opposition bloc could gain 8.9% of votes, its leader Boyko in the presidential rating is 6.8%. What is the reason?
– Unfair power belongs to the people, and it adds credibility. And the people are very slowly emerging from the influence of Communist ideas. Remember, Moses led the Jews from Egyptian captivity and 40 years. And the distance was small. Why?
– Updated to generation.
– So died, those who lived in slavery. Was born a new generation that knows what freedom is. Because, said Aristotle, for a slave to live easier than a free person: the slave take care of the owner, but a free people should take care of themselves. We were in the same situation. Ukraine can be reborn. The question is – will it take 40 years? I think a little less. But due to the fact that the government was not Ukrainian in spirit, 25 years disappeared. Although during this time the nation learned a lot. We sat in a Moscow cell in prison, like animals. In 1991 opened a cage – and we do not run anywhere. But it was a period of self-discovery. The markets and bazaars came the goods from around the world. Have the opportunity to see how people live in other countries. We see and compare ourselves with the Europeans. Through comparison of the learned themselves. This is the period that concerns people, life. But ideology is a field of intellectuals, not ordinary people. People are not quite out yet from a state of slavery. So voters, and we have 32 million, and sell your newsletter for a kilo of buckwheat. Citizen, if he is a citizen feels responsibility for everything that happens in Ukraine. And the slave does not feel: that the other is responsible for everything, not him.
Ukrainian nationalism as a political concept is a positive idea. He justifies the need for independence and fight for it. And what we see now is a manifestation of an elementary lack of culture, primitivism. It is not nationalism, it is, on the contrary, a departure from the idea of nationalism. Blind obedience to the leader, who is politically experienced enough
– From the first years of independence, head of the Ukrainian Republican party, founded on the principles of intellectual nationalism. Now gaining popularity is the nationalism of a different sort – more radical. Radicals smash courts, shooting, smashing Windows, beating opponents. Why nationalism has survived this transformation?
I don’t agree with that. Ukrainian nationalism as a political concept is a positive idea. He justifies the need for independence and fight for it. And what we see now is a manifestation of an elementary lack of culture, primitivism. It is not nationalism, it is, on the contrary, a departure from the idea of nationalism. Blind obedience to the leader, who is politically experienced enough. What Kohanivsky fired the gun is a huge mistake. There is a psychological point: if you pulled out a gun from his pocket and fired a rubber bullet, so someone else can get a gun with a regular bullet. You justify it. Can’t do that. It is impossible to leave unpunished this shot.
Well, guys, his supporters went on a purely uncontrolled, unconscious reaction when they started smashing up the court. Nationalism is condemned. We are in the conditions of an independent state should know that there are only two ways to fight: the revolution, and now this method could not be applied, and the parliamentary constitutional methods. That is an open discussion of the draft laws. Discuss, defend, but do not force it. Good that you came to Kiev, which was on the Maidan, it is good that you have a lot, well if you will have even more, five or a hundred times. Ask the deputies of the Verkhovna Rada adoption of laws that Ukraine needs. And independent anti-corruption court, and on the abolition of parliamentary independence, and the change of the electoral law. This is a normal procedure of ideological struggle between the people and government. But to get a gun is unacceptable. This push in the side of the revolution. Only there’s something a weapon could be done.
– A possible new revolution and whether it is necessary?
– In any case. While we’re at war – revolution impossible. This direct assistance to Putin.
– Why during the years of independence, Ukraine has not appeared a strong party based on the ideology of intellectual nationalism?
– This was the Ukrainian Republican party. We were not able to withstand the enormous pressure that created the power. Why failed? We stood on the position that you can not take money from oligarchs. Otherwise, you do their bidding. But there were small entrepreneurs who helped. And the government cut off assistance. Bright time. Comes in URP entrepreneur, and we are talking about the fact that he helped the party. Overheard it. Don’t know the office was bugged or someone has transferred, but the head of the presidential Administration Tabachnik know about it. And Tabachnik hated Ukraine sincere, and the party hated – saw us as a potential enemy. He gave conversation Azarov. Azarov calls the man and says: what the nationalists have gone? If you don’t stop, first we will destroy your business, and then head off. Here is a picture.
I believe that in Ukraine there is a niche for the ideology of republicanism. As for the oligarchs, let them do business, not politics. They should be separated from power.
– Poroshenko promised – but did not.
– Did, Yes. He has repeatedly lied to people. He had me personally tricked. I with my own ears twice heard, as he said, if I’m elected President I’ll sell your business. I then offered: sell – the sales documents, let them publish in the newspaper Voice of Ukraine. Instead, he handed the management of the business.
– In recent years in Ukraine is growing the rating of the populists. And what, in your opinion, should be the next President, who will vote in 2019? Nationalist, liberal?
– In any case not a liberal. Ukraine needs the nationalist. Liberal philosophy, as seen by the West, leads to moral degradation. That can’t happen.